UPDATE 2: It looks like Paul at Wizbang deleted my last comment, after he triumphantly stated that he had "killed my whole argument". This after repeatedly misrepresenting my position (especially doing so without correction on the front page). I'm suprised that someone would actually delete someone's comment when they're defending their position. Even O'Reilly gives his guest "the last word". To present the entire back and forth (along with my deleted post), the discussion between Paul and myself is reproduced at the end of the post.
UPDATE: Paul at Wizbang responds (scroll down to Update 3). Unfortunately, I don't think he understood what I was saying. However, he does a great job of eviscerating a straw man of his own invention. Bravo! My response at the end of this post.
***
Wizbang has found a new set of "unused" schoolbuses to claim that the Mayor was incompetent. However, a deeper examination of the evidence shows that the buses were used, the Mayor directed people to these buses, and that officials from Gretna and Jefferson Parish may have stopped people from getting on these buses.
This post on Wizbang shows a set of parked schoolbuses located at the Algiers Bus Barn. The picture was taken around 10 AM on August 31st. Wizbang at first used these photos as evidence of more wasted resources by the Mayor wrt evacuation efforts. However, the Jawa Report found pictures taken from later that afternoon showing the buses moving towards what looks to be a ferry station at Algiers Point.
Taking a closer look at the picture, one can see the buses pulling out of the bus station (lower left hand quadrant). Look at the upper left hand corner of the coast (at the Algiers Point Revetment, according to Google Earth) and you'll see five schoolbuses (three yellow, two white) at what looks to be a ferry terminal. A closer look seems to reveal small crowds of people around the buses (though this is very difficult to make out).
Interestingly, it seems like the NGS also took a picture of the region to the west a few minutes later. If you look at the lower left corner of land on this picture, then you will see five buses (three yellow, two white) headed south (away from Algiers Point) on Bouny St. These buses seem to have some sort of escort (police maybe), as they are being led by a blue or black car and trailed by a white car.
What could this mean? There is evidence that Algiers Point was used by the Coast Guard in their search and rescue mission. Also there are reports of people that were rescued in New Orleans being taken by ferry to "dry land and waiting buses across the river on Algiers Point". NPR also has a report on how ferries were used to evacuate people from Chalmette to Algiers Point.
It looks like this ferry station was a place where survivors, rescued by either helicopter or boat, were put on buses and sent to safety.
Where did they go? From the pictures we can't say. It's doubtful that these buses were used to go into New Orleans on Wednesday (as there were no reports of buses used in evacuation efforts at the Superdome or Convention Center on Wednesday). Taking the evacuees up to Baton Rouge would be difficult, since I-10 going west was flooded shortly past the Superdome. My guess is that they may have gone west on Route 90 to somewhere like Houma.
Interestingly, there are reports of Gretna City, Jefferson Parish, and Lousiana State Crescent City Connection Police blocking any foot traffic across the Crescent City Connection into the East Bank (including Algiers) on Monday after the hurricane passed.
Note in this CNN article that the Mayor urged people to cross over the bridge into dry land (bold mine):
NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- As the heart of a hurricane-ravaged New Orleans filled with sewage-tainted floodwaters and corpses, Mayor Ray Nagin urged people to cross a bridge leading to the dry lands of the city's suburban west bank.
But some evacuees who tried that route told CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" and "News Night with Aaron Brown" that they were met by police with shotguns who refused to allow them into Gretna, a nearby town on the other side.
...
With food and water dwindling at the Louisiana Superdome and the city's convention center and the promise of buses unrealized, New Orleans police directed one group across the bridge toward the city's west bank -- and Gretna, said Larry Bradshaw, one of the evacuees.
"We were told by the commander at the police command post ... that we should cross that bridge, and there would be buses waiting to take us out," he said on CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360."
"We walked, probably 200 people, about a two-hour trek," Tim Sheer, another evacuee, told CNN's "News Night with Aaron Brown." "We got to the top of the bridge. They stopped us with shotguns.
"We had people in wheelchairs, we had people in strollers, people on crutches, so we were a slow-moving group," said Bradshaw. "And we didn't think anything when we saw the deputies there. Then all of a sudden we heard shooting."
The Times-Picayune also has a brief report instructing people that the Crescent City Connection is the only way out of the city.
So what we have is evidence that the Mayor and other city officials instructed people to leave the city via the Crescent City Connection. And we also have evidence that there were buses that were loading evacuees at Algiers Point, on the other side of the Crescent City Connection. One can try to lay blame on the Mayor here, but he accurately told people where to go to get evacuated. To try and pin this on the Mayor is absurd. Instead, heavy blame (and investigation) should go to those that kept people out of the West Bank: primarily Gretna's police chief and others involved in keeping people off of the Crescent City Connection.
(See also the Mayor Nagin and the School Buses FAQ for more on the school bus story.)
***
The original response in the main post at Wizbang:
Update 3 (by Paul): Someone over at the llama school took a nose dive into the bizarre trying to make the case that Gretna officials (Jefferson Parish) blocked access to the busses. In a fit of irony that can only be produced in the blogosphere, he calls my conclusion that the mayor did not use the busses "absurd."
OK... He bases his conclusion on the unrelated fact that Gretna officials turned back New Orleans residents after Mayor Nagin gave up and urged his people to WALK into a neighboring parish who had no facilities to support them AND Nagin never even called the neighboring parish to tell them he was sending thousands of hungy/thirsty people over. (what a nice guy) While Gretna officials did turn back people on foot, there is absolutely no evidence to support the notion there was a blockade of Orleans Parish vehicles.
You can go read the whole bizarre illogical conclusion the llama student drew, but I'll save you the time and offer you the obvious debunking. If Nagin found time to whine to the media about Gretna sending his people back... And Nagin found time to whine to the media that the Feds did not send buses... How on earth could it be that a neighboring parish blocked Orleans from using their own busses and Nagin never said a word?
Get real. To believe this bizarre conclusion, you'd have to believe that the Mayor was calling for the busses the whole time but Gretna set up road blocks to stop the busses. Then 48 hours later Gretna let the busses roll (see above) and Nagin never said a word to anyone about another parish blocking his busses. You'd also have to believe that Gretna also made sure their magical school bus blockade never made it to any of the media. Yeah, right. Now you know why that llama is still in school.
My response to Paul at Wizbang:
Paul,
I think you completely misunderstood my claim. Let me lay it out again, and I'll address where (I think) you misunderstand my post.
There are multiple reports of the mayor and other city officials instructing people to leave by foot across the Crescent City Connection.
There is also photographic evidence of school buses taking evacuees from Algiers Point. And there is evidence of city officials telling evacuees that "there would be buses waiting to take us out" on the other side of the bridge.
There are also multiple reports of Gretna city, Jefferson Parish, and Lousiana State police not allowing pedestrians across the bridge. (Note that it's not just Gretna city police, but police from various jurisdictions...none of them being for the city of New Orleans or Orleans Parish.)
So let's recap.
1. Some city officials tell people to get out via foot to buses on the other side of the Mississippi.
2. There is photographic evidence of evacuees being picked up and transported by bus at Algiers Point (on the other side of the Mississippee) on Wednesday afternoon.
3. The only close way to get to Algiers Point (by land) is by the Crescent City Connection.
4. There is eyewitness evidence of police blocking people from getting to the other side of the river via the Crescent City Connection.
If Gretna and other officials are blocking access to the bridge, and there are buses on the other side of the bridge, then how isn't it that Gretna city officials blocked people from these buses?
The only thing I can think is that you were confused about what I posted. I never said that Gretna and other officials blocked buses from coming into New Orleans. I said that they blocked access TO the buses. My best guess is that the Mayor was given a report that there were buses used to evacuate people from Algiers Point to some point in South Louisiana, and city officials told some people to head over there b/c they didn't have any buses at the Superdome. Likely, city officials weren't aware that the bridge was being blocked and that's where problems occurred.
Paul:
OK Llama you are correct.. I was wrong and you were right.
NOW- I thought the mayor was simply incompetent. You have proven he was insane.
Rather than have the drivers ~you know~ drive the busses over the bridge, he made evacuees walk 5 miles in the heat over about a 12 story bridge to get on the busses.
YEP! That was the mayors plan all along and the damn cops in Gretna foiled his perfect plan.
Are you comply incapable of understanding that if you are right you are damning the mayor even more than I ever could? Don't you get that?
If the mayors PLAN was to get crippled people to walk 2 hours to get into busses that could have been driven over the bridge in 10 minutes, then that plan was the work of a mad man.
If I am right, he should resign. If you are right he should be committed.
Are you really sure you want to win this one?
My response:
Paul,
Algiers Point ferry station was used as a drop-off point for people that were rescued by helicopter and by ferry. A lot of Chalmette residents (an area devastated even worse than New Orleans) were picked up by boat and taken here. If you take these buses away from Algiers Point, then what do you do with the people rescued from Chalmette and others rescued by boat and chopper? Leave them because there are people at the Superdome? There has to be a fleet of buses there used to shuttle people from Algiers Point to food, water, shelter, and medical care. They had food and water at the Superdome...I doubt they much of this at the ferry station. Since there are reports that the Gretna/Algiers facilities were packed, my guess is that they took people to other shelters farther west.
As for the Mayor and city officials, I don't think that the "plan" was to make everyone (or anyone) walk to Algiers to leave. Note that people in the Superdome and Convention Center were not instructed to walk to Algiers (prob. because buses were coming to the dome at some point), and I'm sure the crippled weren't instructed to make the trip as well. The Mayor (or someone) decided to wait for a larger fleet of buses to take people from the Dome and Convention Center, while the smaller fleet was used to evacuate people that made it to Algiers Point.
It looks like people that were willing to make the walk were instructed by some city officials to go to buses across the bridge, knowing that there were buses being used to evacuate people. This wasn't "the plan", but improvisation so that people who could make the trip on foot could get out of the city. Of course, if this was "the plan" then it would be crazy...but there's absolutely no evidence of this. Sorry, but this is another strawman you're putting out here.
Once people headed towards the bridge, they were stopped by officials from a separate jurisdiction and forced to stay in the city. Again. Gretna, Jefferson Parish, and other officials did not allow people to walk to buses. I really can't conceive how this can be blamed on the Mayor.
Back to Paul:
Llama you've now changed your argument 3 times. None have made a dime's worth of sense.
Now your argument is that these busses were more needed in Algiers than the Dome. That directly conflicts with your earlier theory that Nagin wanted the people from the Dome to walk to the busses. If they were needed in Algiers why have people walk form the dome?
Further as the photos prove, the busses were not used in Algiers until 48 hours after the storm hit. WHY WHY WHY?
You have one more post left in this thread to say your peace then you are done. I should just ban you now because you are clearly either being a troll or you are a dumbass. (or you are the mayor's cousin) (or some combination of all 3)
You say: "I really can't conceive how this can be blamed on the Mayor."
Then you must not be able to conceive too much. The busses to evacuate his people sat unused for 2 days and you can't figure out why he might be to blame. You're a dumbass.
Give me your last dumbass theory and be done. After that you are done. I won't have dumbasses abusing common sense.
My response:
Paul,
If you want to ban me for expressing a view that's different from your view on your forum, then go ahead. This isn't an attempt to troll. It's an attempt to lay out an argument that is different from yours and the majority of your readers. And if you're misrepresenting my position (which you clearly do in Update 3), I'm going to correctly restate and defend my position. If you can't deal with this kind of dissent and/or debate (laying out evidence and other viewpoints without personal attacks), then that's just sad. I hope that your desire to ban is based on just misunderstanding my arguments and not a desire to get rid of opinions you don't agree with. Now, to address your comment:
First, I've never changed my argument. It's clear in my first comment: City officials told some people to go to buses across the Crescent City Connection (CCC), there's photographic evidence of buses being used to evacuate people across the CCC, and there are multiple eyewitness accounts of people not being allowed to cross the bridge after being told that there were evacuation buses there. This is consistent with my original post and all of my comments on the blog. The only thing you use to say that I've changed my argument is this:
Now your argument is that these busses were more needed in Algiers than the Dome. That directly conflicts with your earlier theory that Nagin wanted the people from the Dome to walk to the busses. If they were needed in Algiers why have people walk form the dome?
They were needed to transport people rescued from Chalmette and other places from Algiers Point to shelters, so it wouldn't be smart at that time to take the buses to the Superdome while people are still coming/at Algiers Point. Maybe after they're done taking people from Algiers Point, but the NGS shows what appears to be lots of people at the Algiers Point ferry station on Wednesday afternoon.
However, there was a subset of people that could walk out and asked officials to walk out. See this quote from Mayor Nagin on Nightline:
People got restless and there was overcrowding at the convention center. They asked us, "Is there any other option?" We said, "Well, if you want to walk, across the Crescent City Connection, there's buses coming, you may be able to find some relief." They started marching. At the parish line, the county line of Gretna, they were met with attack dogs and police officers with machine guns saying "You have to turn back..."
Those that could cross the bridge could have gotten on buses at Algiers Point. Those buses could be used then both for those rescued and sent to the ferry station and by those that walked over. There's no conflict in the argument here.
(By the way, I just looked back and noticed that the first buses to evacuate people from the Superdome left on Wednesday night. It's possible that some of the buses for the Algiers Bus Depot were used in both the Algiers Point evacuation and (after finishing at Algiers Point) at the Superdome.)
Further as the photos prove, the busses were not used in Algiers until 48 hours after the storm hit. WHY WHY WHY?
I agree...they should have been used earlier. My guess is that the mayor didn't know about them at first, and found out about the buses sometime on Wednesday. Then some city officials/police told people that were walking/wanted to walk out that there were buses on the other side of the CCC and that they could evacuate from there. But then they were blocked by Gretna, Jefferson Parish, and CCC police.
Finally, you say this:
You say: "I really can't conceive how this can be blamed on the Mayor."
Then you must not be able to conceive too much. The busses to evacuate his people sat unused for 2 days and you can't figure out why he might be to blame. You're a dumbass.
If you look at the context, I was talking about how you can't blame the blocking of the bridge by authorities in other jurisdictions on the Mayor (see the preceding sentences in the comment).
---
Now I understand that you're unhappy with the Mayor. But why haven't you said anything about how these police officers used shotguns to keep people that had the desire to leave from reaching evacuation buses and/or from leaving the city through the only land route out? This is hugely important, and it seems like you're overlooking it to instead focus on blaming the Mayor.
Paul's response:
Sadly your own quote kills your whole argument:
------------
Nagian said: " "Is there any other option?" We said, "Well, if you want to walk, across the Crescent City Connection, there's buses coming, you may be able to find some relief."
------------Guess that just shoots down your "The Mayor sent them for the busses canard." He said busses "were coming" not to "go to Algiers to get them."
So everything you have tried to say you just undid.
Further you've never answered why that sat idle for 2 freaking days!!!!
NOR have you answered why if he wanted people to use them did he not DRIVE them over the bridge vs make people walk to them. You are either a troll or a dumbass or both.
And finally, my deleted response:
How does this kill my whole argument? He said that buses were coming across the Crescent City Connection, which means that he knew they were coming there to evacuate people. The buses weren't at the Dome yet, and he likely thought that the buses would be available over the CCC before they were available at the Dome to advise this.
Maybe you're assuming that the Mayor was talking about buses coming from somewhere other than Algiers when he talks about the buses coming. But he can just as easily be talking about buses coming from the Bus Depot to the ferry station. As you originally noted, the buses hadn't been used at 10AM on Wednesday...so it's possible that he was talking about buses coming from the Depot before they were actually sent (e.g. while they were finding drivers, gas, etc.).
And we have no idea what time he originally said this. This quote is from Nightline on Sunday, September 4th, recalling what he previously said to people at the Convention Center. If he said this as someone was planning to use those buses, this would be correct. And there are also articles where evacuees report that officials told them there "would be buses waiting to take us out". Or another article, where an evacuee says "They told us to go to the Crescent City connection for buses, ready to pick us up." In these quotes, people were being told that buses were already there across the bridge. You have to explain this evidence as well if you're going to shoot down my argument.
1. Further you've never answered why that sat idle for 2 freaking days!!!!
2. NOR have you answered why if he wanted people to use them did he not DRIVE them over the bridge vs make people walk to them. You are either a troll or a dumbass or both.
Did you read my comment? I'll quote it to show that these were answered. I've even added numbers to make it ultra-clear.
1. I agree...they should have been used earlier. My guess is that the mayor didn't know about them at first, and found out about the buses sometime on Wednesday. Then some city officials/police told people that were walking/wanted to walk out that there were buses on the other side of the CCC and that they could evacuate from there. But then they were blocked by Gretna, Jefferson Parish, and CCC police.
2. They were needed to transport people rescued from Chalmette and other places from Algiers Point to shelters, so it wouldn't be smart at that time to take the buses to the Superdome while people are still coming/at Algiers Point. Maybe after they're done taking people from Algiers Point, but the NGS shows what appears to be lots of people at the Algiers Point ferry station on Wednesday afternoon.
However, there was a subset of people that could walk out and asked officials to walk out. See this quote from Mayor Nagin on Nightline:
...
Those that could cross the bridge could have gotten on buses at Algiers Point. Those buses could be used then both for those rescued and sent to the ferry station and by those that walked over. There's no conflict in the argument here.
To add to the current formulation of your question ("why if he wanted people to use them did he not DRIVE them over the bridge"), how was he going to drive them over? With buses that weren't around the Superdome? And I've already answered (above) why taking the buses away from Algiers Point could have been a bad idea.
Now if you want to talk about not answering questions, I guess I can ask this one again. "But why haven't you said anything about how these police officers used shotguns to keep people that had the desire to leave from reaching evacuation buses and/or from leaving the city through the only land route out?"
Actually, it looks as if the evacuation being staged from the Algiers ferry landing was already in motion many hours before the suggestion that people walk across the CCC.
I'm pretty sure the events are unrelated.
Read here: http://polimom.blogspot.com/2005/10/algiers-buses.html
Posted by: Polimom | October 05, 2005 at 10:25 AM
They may be unrelated, though I'm not sure about that. There are reports of people on foot being instructed to cross the CCC, both by the Mayor and by city officials. So it looks like multiple sources had information that buses were available. I'm not clear on the dates for when city officials told people that there were buses on the other side of the bridge. If it's anytime on or after Wednesday afternoon, then I would guess they're related. Anytime before, and probably not. It's definitely worth examining.
Posted by: llamaschool | October 05, 2005 at 11:37 AM